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	<title>Comments on: German banks loaded with 816 billion in toxic paper</title>
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		<title>By: HRE: defusing the German financial time bomb - Credit Writedowns</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-2#comment-4985</link>
		<dc:creator>HRE: defusing the German financial time bomb - Credit Writedowns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 08:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] German banks loaded with 816 billion in toxic paper - 26 Apr 2009 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] German banks loaded with 816 billion in toxic paper &#8211; 26 Apr 2009 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Estate Real Market Posts &#124; World News</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-2#comment-4888</link>
		<dc:creator>Estate Real Market Posts &#124; World News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 04:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Hypo Real Estate are being rescued with taxpayer money. This is a debate now ongoing in a number of [...]Plum Creek posts higher 1Q results  AP , 04.27.09, 04:50 PM EDT Real estate investment trust Plum [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hypo Real Estate are being rescued with taxpayer money. This is a debate now ongoing in a number of [...]Plum Creek posts higher 1Q results  AP , 04.27.09, 04:50 PM EDT Real estate investment trust Plum [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Estate Real Advertising Market &#124; World News</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4869</link>
		<dc:creator>Estate Real Advertising Market &#124; World News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Hypo Real Estate are being rescued with taxpayer money. This is a debate now ongoing in a number of [...]   Kidnapped mum fought back - crime - national &#124; Stuff.co.nz  Nigel Craig Whakarau, 39, pleaded [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hypo Real Estate are being rescued with taxpayer money. This is a debate now ongoing in a number of [...]   Kidnapped mum fought back &#8211; crime &#8211; national | Stuff.co.nz  Nigel Craig Whakarau, 39, pleaded [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Estate Real Blog Market &#124; World News</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4863</link>
		<dc:creator>Estate Real Blog Market &#124; World News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creditwritedowns.com/?p=8119#comment-4863</guid>
		<description>[...] Hypo Real Estate are being rescued with taxpayer money. This is a debate now ongoing in a number of [...]   Kidnapped mum fought back - crime - national &#124; Stuff.co.nz  Nigel Craig Whakarau, 39, pleaded [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hypo Real Estate are being rescued with taxpayer money. This is a debate now ongoing in a number of [...]   Kidnapped mum fought back &#8211; crime &#8211; national | Stuff.co.nz  Nigel Craig Whakarau, 39, pleaded [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DoctoRx</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4848</link>
		<dc:creator>DoctoRx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 00:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The financial pandemic is far worse than the swine flu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The financial pandemic is far worse than the swine flu.</p>
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		<title>By: DoctoRx</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4842</link>
		<dc:creator>DoctoRx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creditwritedowns.com/?p=8119#comment-4842</guid>
		<description>The financial pandemic is far worse than the swine flu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The financial pandemic is far worse than the swine flu.</p>
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		<title>By: Stevie b.</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4837</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevie b.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Es wird ein sehr interessantes Jahr sein, nicht?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Aber vielleicht nicht ganz so interessant wie letztes jahr...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Es wird ein sehr interessantes Jahr sein, nicht?&#8221;</p>
<p>Aber vielleicht nicht ganz so interessant wie letztes jahr&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: bb</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4836</link>
		<dc:creator>bb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creditwritedowns.com/?p=8119#comment-4836</guid>
		<description>what a twist! do you squeeze lemons at the beach ed?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#039;German banks loaded with 816 billion in toxic paper&#039;&lt;br&gt;&#039;Loans and securities in problem areas add up to 816 billion euros&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what a twist! do you squeeze lemons at the beach ed?</p>
<p>&#39;German banks loaded with 816 billion in toxic paper&#39;<br />&#39;Loans and securities in problem areas add up to 816 billion euros&#39;</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Harrison</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4830</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 08:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thomas,  the political side of this looks to be the more interesting because German politicians want to be positioned well in an election year.  So how the electorate reacts to these reports will define the political reaction as opposed to the other way around in non-election years.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;By that I mean Germany is a country which Kohl took into the Euro without a single popular vote. So politicians have been able to get away with a lot without consulting the electorate.  With these events happening now, the politics are going to be very reactionary and dependent on public opinion. Es wird ein sehr interessantes Jahr sein, nicht?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas,  the political side of this looks to be the more interesting because German politicians want to be positioned well in an election year.  So how the electorate reacts to these reports will define the political reaction as opposed to the other way around in non-election years.  </p>
<p>By that I mean Germany is a country which Kohl took into the Euro without a single popular vote. So politicians have been able to get away with a lot without consulting the electorate.  With these events happening now, the politics are going to be very reactionary and dependent on public opinion. Es wird ein sehr interessantes Jahr sein, nicht?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4825</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 07:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creditwritedowns.com/?p=8119#comment-4825</guid>
		<description>Edward,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;valid point, thanks for pointing it out. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;After reading through your post and the various links, I am tempted to agree with Egghat who wrote (quote): &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Viel Lärm um nichts&quot; würde ich nicht sagen, sondern eher &quot;Viel Lärm um aktuell noch wenig&quot;. Beruhigend finde ich die Derivatepositionen aber trotzdem nicht ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward,</p>
<p>valid point, thanks for pointing it out. </p>
<p>After reading through your post and the various links, I am tempted to agree with Egghat who wrote (quote): </p>
<p>&#8220;Viel Lärm um nichts&#8221; würde ich nicht sagen, sondern eher &#8220;Viel Lärm um aktuell noch wenig&#8221;. Beruhigend finde ich die Derivatepositionen aber trotzdem nicht &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Harrison</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4824</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 06:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creditwritedowns.com/?p=8119#comment-4824</guid>
		<description>Thomas,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I share you sentiments about the prosecutorial zeal at Bafin.  This is the second time in recent German banking history. You recall the IT-Vorstand at HSH Nordbank got the boot because he was leaking documents to the press. (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0%2C1518%2C619624%2C00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,619624,...&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for the figures, they are ridiculously high and they only represent the nominal book value of potentially problematic assets I suspect.  What the eventual losses are is another question altogether.  However, you should note that HRE has significant off-balance sheet exposure and I suspect the Bafin figure includes this.&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/02/hypo-real-estate-600-billion-in-off-balance-sheet-assets.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/02/hypo-re...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;HRE has disputed the level of its off-balance sheet exposure, but you can bet it is enormous.  I intend to write a tad more about HRE, hopefully later today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas,</p>
<p>I share you sentiments about the prosecutorial zeal at Bafin.  This is the second time in recent German banking history. You recall the IT-Vorstand at HSH Nordbank got the boot because he was leaking documents to the press. (<a  href="http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0%2C1518%2C619624%2C00.html" rel="nofollow" class="external"></a><a href="http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,619624,.." rel="nofollow">http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,619624,..</a>.)</p>
<p>As for the figures, they are ridiculously high and they only represent the nominal book value of potentially problematic assets I suspect.  What the eventual losses are is another question altogether.  However, you should note that HRE has significant off-balance sheet exposure and I suspect the Bafin figure includes this.<br /><a  href="http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/02/hypo-real-estate-600-billion-in-off-balance-sheet-assets.html" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/02/hypo-re.." rel="nofollow">http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/02/hypo-re..</a>.</p>
<p>HRE has disputed the level of its off-balance sheet exposure, but you can bet it is enormous.  I intend to write a tad more about HRE, hopefully later today.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/04/german-banks-loaded-with-816-billion-in-toxic-paper.html/comment-page-1#comment-4823</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 06:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I find it a bit frustrating how the German press keeps tossing around meaningless numbers. In essence, the SZ article says: &quot;According to a list, there are 816 bn € of problem assets, but we can&#039;t really give you a breakdown, and we can&#039;t really say how much of a problem those assets really are. Maybe a big one, maybe a small one. Heaven knows.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take Hypo Real Estate as an example: &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Sure, the bank is a big mess, no doubt about that. But according to the list, it has 267 bn € of problem assets. Their latest financial statements (9/08) tell us that the bank has total assets of 392 bn €. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So 70 % of their whole book (which mostly consists of loans, not subprime securities) is &quot;problem assets&quot;? Well, if you classify every loan that may possibly have to take some sort of haircut due to falling real estate prices as a &quot;potential problem asset&quot;, you may end up at 267 bn €. But it is quite inconceivable that HRE will incur losses that come anywhere close to 267 bn €. And because of that, the number as such is meaningless. All it does is tell the public: &quot;The risks are huge.&quot; Which they undoubtedly are, but you don&#039;t need an arbitrary 816 bn € number for that.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Having said that, I also think it is ridiculous that BaFin now wants to prosecute the people reponsible for the leak. Instead, they should make a full disclosure and tell people exactly what the list means, caveats and limitations and all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it a bit frustrating how the German press keeps tossing around meaningless numbers. In essence, the SZ article says: &#8220;According to a list, there are 816 bn € of problem assets, but we can&#39;t really give you a breakdown, and we can&#39;t really say how much of a problem those assets really are. Maybe a big one, maybe a small one. Heaven knows.&#8221;</p>
<p>Take Hypo Real Estate as an example: </p>
<p>Sure, the bank is a big mess, no doubt about that. But according to the list, it has 267 bn € of problem assets. Their latest financial statements (9/08) tell us that the bank has total assets of 392 bn €. </p>
<p>So 70 % of their whole book (which mostly consists of loans, not subprime securities) is &#8220;problem assets&#8221;? Well, if you classify every loan that may possibly have to take some sort of haircut due to falling real estate prices as a &#8220;potential problem asset&#8221;, you may end up at 267 bn €. But it is quite inconceivable that HRE will incur losses that come anywhere close to 267 bn €. And because of that, the number as such is meaningless. All it does is tell the public: &#8220;The risks are huge.&#8221; Which they undoubtedly are, but you don&#39;t need an arbitrary 816 bn € number for that.</p>
<p>Having said that, I also think it is ridiculous that BaFin now wants to prosecute the people reponsible for the leak. Instead, they should make a full disclosure and tell people exactly what the list means, caveats and limitations and all.</p>
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